Mars Hill Visit (part I)
My first impressions of Mars Hill? The neighborhood is pretty run-down, the buildings scream “1975″ and there seems to be a fair number of abandoned buildings. And then you pull into the parking lot, and it’s a bit disorientating because it’s really unclear where the entrance is, except that people are streaming towards one particular door, so you just follow the crowds.
I expected that everyone at Mars Hill would be in their 20’s & 30’s, but the crowd was significantly older, and much less “hip” than I expected (of course we attended the 9am service — the other services may be decidedly more young & hip). I guess I’ve read and heard Baby Boomer pastors be dismissive of Rob & Mars Hill because of their impression — most likely gleaned only from Nooma videos — that Mars Hill is a “young adults church” and therefore insignificant or irrelevant.
Mars Hill meets in an abandoned mall that was given to them, so that really defines the “feel.” And while many American churches today would spend millions of dollars renovating and making things “excellent,” I was intrigued by all the things that Mars chooses not to do…in fact, over the next couple of posts that refrain will come up over and over again…they choose not to do a lot of things that many evangelical churches choose to do, almost out of default. So the mall looks a lot like…an abandoned mall.
The greeters were kind…and they didn’t hand you anything, unless you didn’t have a Bible in hand, then they offered a Bible. So we went in and found our seats…
they don’t clean the bathrooms very well.
i can’t believe you came all the way to michigan, and didn’t even call… i would’ve bought you a coffee!
minimalistic to a fault was my thought…
No offense… but how can someone be a minimalist to a fault? It seems like they promoting a great way of recycling and going out of their way to show that one does not need a spectacular setting to worship.
J.L. –
welcome to the conversation! I’ll give Beth some time to answer for herself, but I’ll say this…
One of the things we wrestled with, in several conversations on the way home, was the proper amount of minimalism (not sure that’s the right way to say that, but hang with me)….
I guess Mars Hill can afford to put no signs up, since they started as a church of 1,000. Other churches don’t have that option…and I’m not sure it’s desirable.
I’m all for simplicity…but I don’t want to make it too hard for people who are looking to find us. Hence a sign…a simple sign, to be sure.
But I’m not criticizing Mars Hill at all. It clearly works for them! The same may not work for us!
And…I can’t speak for the bathrooms. The one I was in was fine!
Yes, the 9:00 AM service is when us “old folks” attend (I’m 39). The young, um “hip” college kids can’t roll out of bed that early so they usually attend the 11:00 AM or even 6:00 PM.
And, just to clear up some misconceptions: I am surprised to hear you call Grandville “run down,” because it is one of the nicer areas in the Metro Grand Rapids area. And, although it is true there aren’t signs everywhere pointing you to a door, there are large entrances on each side of the building. Lastly, Grand Village Mall wasn’t “abandoned,” it was donated. Granted, it still looks pretty much as it did when it was a mall. If you look closely enough you can still see the outlines of some of the former store’s signs!
Shalom
Maybe it was just the direction that we drove in from??
We didn’t spend a lot of time exploring Grandville. I guess I was comparing it to the church I just left the staff of where it was located in the midst of brand-new development — which is where a lot of churches seek to plant themselves… what I saw of Grandville as we drove in was buildings that were at least 30-40 years old.
Thanks for the other clarifications!
And please don’t read into some of my observations…the fact that it was older and less hip than I was expecting, is a REALLY GOOD THING!
I understand what you are saying. I was not under the impression that they started out at 1000 goers. Honestly… I didnt mean it to sound offensive! But I am the type of person who finds it very disheartening to see that a church needs to go to the ends of the earth with top of the line displays to get people to come when there are other places in the world that will never see that much money in their entire lives.
As for the “proper amount of minimalism”… I know I am not exactly a minimalist as far as “things” go but the less carbon footprint is the better (Treehugger present). If they are able to present their message in such a way that they do not need elaborate methods to do so then they, in my opinion, are successful and are clearly doing something right. I mean, let’s be honest, Jesus was not exactly receiving an endorsement from Bose Sound to get his point across the land.
Agreed! Agreed!
I too agree that some mega churches needlessly spend exuberant amounts of cash for cutting-edge technology, such as two $1million moving video screens. But these churches do draw the masses. And where the masses gather, in flow funds that ARE shared around the world. There comes a happy medium where technology adds to worship and the service to where it takes away from the reason the church is there in the first place.
and yet…facts are megachurches, as a percentage of their overall budgets are doing much, much less than places like Mars Hill
no, this isn’t true of every megachurch…I’m generalizing…but I think you’d be hard-pressed to find a “contemporary megachurch” that is doing more to keep the focus outside of their building and the next building campaign.
let me also say…I’m not criticizing megachurches…Willow Creek, Saddleback, and others have done significant kingdom work in reminding churches of seekers, when most churches were completely unaware. They challenged us to think seriously about the culture, when churches were mired in 1950’s-style hymnology & practice…but I think the next evolution in the church is a heightened social consciousness.
this is what the emergent church and some key churches like Saddleback are pushing us to…to think more and more about “the least of these,” and that’s what I saw at Mars Hill that was so attractive.
I guess I am a bit confused at why Mars Hill is not categorized as a megachurch here. Maybe it is my context, but my understanding of megachurch has to do with size and at 10,000 people each week that seems “mega” to me, but maybe it isn’t.
What do people classify as a megachurch and why is Mars Hill not a megachurch?
I guess the reason that I ask, is because the idea of “mega” churches itself seem to breed some ideas of their own.
-Bigger is better
-Celebrity pastor
-Big bank of financial resources
-lots of “paid” professional church workers
-Organization and management of church
They also seem to be in opposition to the idea of spontaneous planting of churches and intentionally keeping church an intimate, personal, organic community.
Any thoughts?
Bringing up “intimacy” is something that I was thinking about earlier. Forgive me for not really elaborating but I only have a few minutes… But, this begs the question about how a megachurch can remain intimate enough for discussion that challenges the ideas that the “head pastor” is bringing to the sermons. I personally believe that it is impossible for every person in a megachurch to believe the exact same thing that everyone else does unless they sincerely do not think for themselves.
KG —
You’re right…by definition Mars Hill, with approximately 10,000 people every weekend IS a megachurch.
But I would say in your list of megachurch values, Mars Hill does everything they can to say almost the opposite….
they don’t believe bigger is better
they don’t believe in celebrity pastor…I know Rob Bell is exactly that…but I really got a sense Sunday, that Mars Hill isn’t about depending on the celebrity of RB…they really want to be a church serving Grand Rapids & the world…and I really don’t get the sense that Rob wants that…do you know that he turns down every speaking engagement. The only time he speaks outside of Mars Hill is his speaking tours in 2006 & 2007?
they have lots of resources, but less than other churches their size…and they give lots of their resources away.
their staff ratio is about 1/3 less than churches of similar size and from what someone told me, their staff budget as a percentage of the entire budget is about 20% less than comparable churches.
I don’t know much about organization and management.
so yes…it’s a little weird talking about a megachurch that doens’t act like a megachurch.
I haven’t read your other posts, but let me say this.
PLEASE DON’T COPY US. Honestly. You have to understand that Grand Rapids is considered the “Bible Belt of the North.” There are a lot of megachurches around here. Mars Hill is just one of many. You can head 5 min down past the mall to find another that would be the antithesis facility wise to Mars.
Here’s the thing, the building, and Sunday gatherings, are not the focus of our week. Our success isn’t determined on how much we pour in our building, or how much color we have, or how much money we can accumulate, it’s about what we do with what we have and how we can advance God’s Kingdom on earth, and that is done in the everyday.
As much as I would love to see more expression artistically on a permanent level in our facility, we realize that we are the church, not the building, and when there are tons of people in need out there, why would we want to spend resources on our building when people don’t have food to eat, or heat where they live, or counseling when they can’t pay for it? That is the thrust of the facility I think.
I remember Don Golden telling a story about bringing the finest architects to see what they could do to the “Shed.” The architects agreed that it was one of the most bland spaces they’ve seen in that size of a church. Don said, “Good, ’cause this setting is exactly the way we want it. It reminds us of our identity and mission.”
Hope that sheds some light. I’ll read some more now.
Thanks for your thought…I’m surprised at the number of Mars Hill people who have found my humble little blog!
Our goal in visiting wasn’t to copy…nothing’s worse than churches that blindly copy the latest fad!
However, there are times where you read a book and say “I couldn’t have said it so eloquently, but this is exactly what resonates inside of me!” (My first experience with A New Kind of Christian.)
And there are times when you visit a church and you say, “This is so close to what resonates inside of me.” Our visit to Mars Hill was like that for me. That doesn’t mean we’ll just copy, but we are paying attention. We’re also paying attention to other churches as well as paying attention to what it means to be a faithful church in Peoria, IL!
I don’t want to beat a dead horse, but I would like to further challenge some points for the sake of dialogue.
Especially since you are in the process of writing the history of a new church, it is a great time to be considering all of these things.
I am not trying to be a hater of Mars or Mega churches. I have visited Mars Hill myself and enjoyed the experience and appreciated a lot of the same things. But I would still like to question some things about the “big” church mindset.
they don’t believe bigger is better - this may be quite true, but by continuing to get bigger instead of spontaneously planting churches, they still feed into that mindset.
they don’t believe in celebrity pastor…I know Rob Bell is exactly that…but I really got a sense Sunday, that Mars Hill isn’t about depending on the celebrity of RB…they really want to be a church serving Grand Rapids & the world…and I really don’t get the sense that Rob wants that…do you know that he turns down every speaking engagement. The only time he speaks outside of Mars Hill is his speaking tours in 2006 & 2007? - this may also be true, but once you make videos you are a celebrity and this will play into the culture of your church. How many people like your group or even myself have visited Mars Hill because we heard about it through books, podcasts, videos and wanted to learn from them. When you allow the church to be so big that it is a mega church, the pastor will become a celebrity at least locally.
they have lots of resources, but less than other churches their size…and they give lots of their resources away - what if a church that size was in the ghetto of Grand Rapids instead of Granville, despite its wealth Grand Rapids has areas of extreme poverty. Why do so many big churches that want to “care for the poor” have their primary location away from the poor. People already come from all over the area to attend Mars. Why not centrally locate in an area of greatest need? That would do a lot more to use your resources to bless the “least of these”. But this just doesn’t happen. Many wealthy white evangelicals are talking about being more socially conscience while keeping themselves at arms length from those very people. They are talking about things that most if not all churches in the city have known and been doing for decades because they were in touch with people. But now we have churches springing up who are talking about things that many people have been knowing and doing for years and years, but still not willing to locate themselves where they could truly put their money where there mouth is.
SORRY ABOUT THE RABBIT TRAIL AND THE RANT. I do believe that Mars Hill has sincere motives and intentiions, but location tells a lot about what you are really about.
their staff ratio is about 1/3 less than churches of similar size and from what someone told me, their staff budget as a percentage of the entire budget is about 20% less than comparable churches. - so they are better than others, point still stands large churches demand many “paid” staff. Small churches that plant small churches require little in “paid” staff. Much like your group right now.
I don’t know much about organization and management. - I can tell you this, the very people that Jesus said would be great in the kingdom of God would have trouble leading or managing a mega church. We have made church leadership require serious training in organization and management. This things are necessary to operate million dollar budgets, run a staff of even 70 and take care of large facilities.
I am probably very onsided on this right now, but just trying to look at the other side of things. I also come from a small church in the city of Chicago that works without paid staff, without a building that we own, with a budget that is less than most peoples annual income, but with growing disciples who long to disciple others and see God’s kingdom advanced.
Please accept my comments as just thoughts from a flawed sinner who is trying to figure it all out.
ok, sorry, i haven’t checked this in a few days…
first off i agree with what Charlie said in response to my “minimalistic to a fault” comment.
i am not into the flashy, showy type worship either, in fact it has always been a turn off for me and a distraction to the actual reason I go to church. that is why at my old church my eyes were closed most the time to block it out. the worship and service itself was not what i was referring to.
i just think that they could have done a little more to make it look less like an old mall. walking through there you can pretty much tell where the old stores were. personally i would have a hard time feeling at home there. it had that just moved in feel to me. it is more about feel and atmosphere than money or resource usage.
i am all about using what is already there and not taking up more land to build some huge new building. i love that they have done that, it’s an example of being a good steward of the money they are given and the resources in thier community. the fact that they even look at thier bulletin and try to figure how they can make that the most cost and eco friendly is great!! i think that is important to continue to search for new ways to be effective.
as a side note, you can go overboard on anything…even a good thing.
i remember growing up in the AG churches and hearing sermons about the evils of visiting other churches.
i never understood why our pastors always hated the idea of the members visiting other churches.
maybe this is why… i see a lot of negativity towards the megas and a lot of negativity towards the minis. i can’t help but wonder… would christians be fighting each other over mega vs. mini if they never “visited?”
i can’t wait to have a home church here in peoria, but i’m thankful for all the minis and megas everywhere in the world.
Obviously I can’t speak for the staff (although many of them are my friends), but let me comment on KG’s comment.
Even though we are located in Grandville, and yes, many people from suburbia come, there are many who don’t. Quite honestly I feel like going to Grandville is out of the way from where I live (which is in a poorer section of GR). You notice quickly that the facility is NOT where most of the ministry happens at Mars. There are people from Mars all over the poorest parts of GR, doing incredibly brave things for the Kingdom.
Sure, the location is in a more suburban context, but we don’t really use our facility as a focal point, so it doesn’t become as important of an issue. Now, if your facility was going to be a center for the community, then I might think a little differently.
In regards to staffing, my friends were toast. They are working so hard trying to get their hands around this thing called Mars Hill. They have recently provided much more structure which has only helped them, and finally hired more staff to continue doing the things they’ve dreamed about as well as freeing them to use their gifts to the fullest.
Regarding those who attend and their resources, I remember Rob asking one day about what would it look like for wealthy, suburbanite Christians to care about the oppressed in our world? There are many who have not taken that next step to get down and dirty, but there are many who have who wouldn’t have done otherwise. Even the people who haven’t still give their resources to support those who are, and Mars is ALWAYS nudging them to take the step.
I think every church has something to give, no matter what the size. God cares about all and has to reach people in all sorts of different ways. Mega doesn’t mean better, just different. No different than the church of 30 serving a small, rural, community and helping bring the Kingdom there.
Finally, to respond to Beth’s comment about the “feel,” The feel part is when you become part of the smaller communities within Mars Hill. Sunday is a gathering for us, and life happens within the context of the smaller communities we’re a part of.
Hope that helps and gives you a little insight from someone on the “inside.”
Grace and peace!
I remember the first time I ever went into Mars. It felt like I was home. I know that sounds corny but it’s true. I love the church, and the people. I love the fact that rather than spend money on changing anything (besides making it safe for the kids, etc) we use that money to make a measurable difference in the world. Some day, our buildings aren’t going to mean crap so why waste resources on them today is my thought. I HATE church signs of any nature. So many people don’t invite their neighbors, friends, family, etc to church as it is, why give them more reason not to do so? Having said all of that, I understand how some people will feel the need to do things that I don’t like (have a sign) and that’s OK, I probably just won’t go there if I have a choice. BTW, I’d be careful of that Mike guy, he’s a rabble rouser.
Mike,
Thank you for your imput. I’m really not trying to be too critical of Mars Hill as much as offer a different perspective as this emerging group moves forward with “church”. Being a part of a “church plant” that started a little over five years ago, I am keenly aware of how what you do in the begin sets a lot in place for your future.
So I like offering the other side of the coin to stimulate thought about what church looks like. Keep up the good work in GR. Keep pushing people towards justice. God bless.